Curse

chullster · Dec 15, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Hello all,

Fresh from a nice run in RA, and using a blind skill in my bar, found you can blind melee and then ignore them if you want to.

Until it's removed, they're 90% useless.

So as a caster in RA most of the time, I feel sorry for melee characters, and think they should have daze changed to do exactly the same as the current blind.

Remove the double cast time and easy-to-interupt part, and make it so 90% of all spells that you cast, fail.

Then you can daze a target, and ignore them, just like blind

Let the flames begin.

LifeInfusion · Dec 15, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

No. Why? because removing blind is much easier than removing daze. Hell antidote signet will remove it from a condition stack.

Daze destroys offense and defense, while blind just means your warrior or paragon needs to call for blind to be removed (provided it lasts long enough for the clarity and shield -20%s not to kick in).

Daze basically gives condition removal the finger unless you have song of purification or "It's only a flesh wound!". The strongest condition removals are all spells (RC, Mend body and soul on team with ST rit, Pure was Li Ming, purge conditions which is on horrific recharge). I guess you could Foul Feast but then you end up screwing over the Necro's other spells.

EDIT: Oh and cautery signet is 2 seconds cast.

FoxBat · Dec 15, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Basic problem with Daze is it messes up monks and people die. Nullifying healers is stronger than nullifying anything else, and caster hate is balanced around this limitation.

galactic · Dec 15, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

the reason meele hate is so strong is because they output more damage then casters. crazy ammounts of blind/empathy are abundant in ra because crazy amounts of sins/warriors are abundant in ra. I guess you could argue that a stoner spammer or sf/mb/blood necro outputs similar damage, but 1 dshot keeps him down for 20 seconds, a well timed diversion keeps him down for a min. dshots and diverts take more skill then mindlessly spamming bsurge, but at high level gvg, a one second rupt is a lol, so is a divert on a skill with 4 sec recharge. also, esurge is wtf good vs casters. if you played gvg, you would know that physicals do not need a buff right now.

if your idea was implemented, it would destroy monks in ra, but in gvg it would just be removed instantly with a draw/rc

Missing HB · Dec 15, 2010, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Basic problem with Daze is it messes up monks and people die. Nullifying healers is stronger than nullifying anything else, and caster hate is balanced around this limitation.

Basic problem with Blind in RA especially is that you get free win vs teams with melee + no healer. Actually , the biggest point is that most skills make you able to SPAM blind , even before it ended on target , whereas they're aren't many skills ( is there one even?) that allows you to perma daze your target.

Anyway , the idea in itself isn't so good , since blind makes a melee character completly useless whereas caster still can use some fast cast , and won't be perma dazed. But once again , it relies on same problem as usual : having no healer in team.....

jazilla · Dec 15, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

4 man format in a game designed for 6-8 person pvp and PvE=imbalance in 4 man format. Welcome to the club of frustration. I suggest you go ranger secondary w/antidote sig. Either that or play a caster like you are already. If they aren't smart enough to bring something to help them out it is their fault. Sins have Assassin's Remedy as well which is a great blind removal.

They don't feel sorry for you when they kill you. You shouldn't feel sorry for them if they can't take care of themselves.

chullster · Dec 15, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Hmm, just to repeat, I was the one applying the blind, and it was playing as a rit, not a blind-bot bsurger, so I was only blinding said target for 6 out of every 10 seconds (if not on 40/40 set).

I only play caster in RA, so blind doesn't actually bother me, just trying to think of a way so both casters and non-casters have an equal "I-win" condition to apply.

kedde · Dec 15, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Melee is already "I-Win" until a caster applies blind, or any other anti melee skill, so stop suggesting terrible ideas.

HawkofStorms · Dec 15, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

The problem is, the game can not be balanced around RA.

As you can clearly see by the other posts made in this thread, this game is balanced around competitive team formats where things like condition removal are delegated to specific team members. Of course things are going to be a disorganized mess in RA where blind lasts in full duration. But this game is balanced around the idea that blind will be removed in 1-2 seconds every time it is applied. Which it is in high level play.

Daze on the other hand is a harder condition to apply and a harder condition to remove, and usually lasts just long enough for a spike to get off.

Missing HB · Dec 15, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The problem is, the game can not be balanced around RA.

As you can clearly see by the other posts made in this thread, this game is balanced around competitive team formats where things like condition removal are delegated to specific team members. Of course things are going to be a disorganized mess in RA where blind lasts in full duration. But this game is balanced around the idea that blind will be removed in 1-2 seconds every time it is applied. Which it is in high level play.

Daze on the other hand is a harder condition to apply and a harder condition to remove, and usually lasts just long enough for a spike to get off.

Pretty much the best answer you could get. Thing is in fact , there wouldn't be ANY qq at all about RA if they just did 1 win = 1point or so. But , since they didn't do it for years , people still complain , and it's understandable... I don't know how many times i raged at that arena considering no monk , bsurge spammers , bad match ups , syncs etc.....
Blinding is really annoying , but not the main RA problem

Uriel_Wolfblood · Dec 15, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by chullster

just trying to think of a way so both casters and non-casters have an equal "I-win" condition to apply.

If a physical like a warrior or sin calls a caster and daze is applied the only thing a caster can do at that point is kite to avoid the damage. So while daze may not effectively kill the caster it is effectively shutting them down = I win. The only reason daze would not be effective on a caster is if it is applied to one that isn't under pressure from a physical.

reaper with no name · Dec 16, 2010, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Ironically, this suggestion would actually hurt melee, since it would make it harder for their casters to remove blind from them.

Sirius Bsns · Dec 16, 2010, 05:31 AM // 05:31

The miss ratio for blind should be reduced to 50-66% to at least enable some damage to seep through. Also, there's a whole slew of blocking stances and skills as well as anti-melee hexes to slow, punish, and mitigate any melee offense. I think that 90% miss rating is just overkill, and takes them out of play too easily [especially B.Surge/B.Flash].

Daze condition could also be throttled back a bit by making the cast time redux 25-50% instead of 100%. With this change, skills causing dazed can be adjusted (or buffed) to a point where spamming it wouldn't be OP'd. Or maybe just remove the *easily interrupted* portion of the dazed condition and keep the 100% to enable easier active interrupts from rangers, mesmers, and even melee.

reaper with no name · Dec 16, 2010, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Some damage does seep through. About 10%.

All conditions are balanced around the assumption that people will bring skills to remove them. In other words, the purpose of blind is not necessarily to shut down melee, but to force the party to bring condition removal to prevent having their melee be shut down. If they don't bring condition removal, then the melee deserves to miss 90% of the time.

Since RA doesn't allow enough player slots on each team to counter everything it is inevitable that some things like this will be overpowered there. But if they were nerfed, then those things would become underpowered in more competitive formats like GvG. And when it comes to GvG balance vs RA balance, GvG should take priority.

Also, if blind is really making it that impossible to succeed, then that means it should be worth using your secondary profession to counter. If you can't bear losing some of your effectiveness for immunity to blindness, then logic dictates blindness must not be enough of a problem to be worth countering in the first place.

Sirius Bsns · Dec 16, 2010, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Some damage does seep through. About 10%.

All conditions are balanced around the assumption that people will bring skills to remove them. In other words, the purpose of blind is not necessarily to shut down melee, but to force the party to bring condition removal to prevent having their melee be shut down. If they don't bring condition removal, then the melee deserves to miss 90% of the time.

Since RA doesn't allow enough player slots on each team to counter everything it is inevitable that some things like this will be overpowered there. But if they were nerfed, then those things would become underpowered in more competitive formats like GvG. And when it comes to GvG balance vs RA balance, GvG should take priority.

Also, if blind is really making it that impossible to succeed, then that means it should be worth using your secondary profession to counter. If you can't bear losing some of your effectiveness for immunity to blindness, then logic dictates blindness must not be enough of a problem to be worth countering in the first place.

Meleers have the following outcomes:

a.) Be blinded and taken out of play throughout the entire match because you decided to take Shock [an unconditional, guaranteed knockdowns] to stop critical spells [i.e.: Diversion, Shame, Backfire, Hammer or Axe Warrior spikes, Rodgort's Invocation, WoH, Burst, etc...],

or

b.) Take [insert condition removal skill here] and miss out on the extra utility that they could've had to save their match from total devastation by skills listed above in "a.)".

It's pretty much a catch-22 here, but with my suggestion above [50-66% blinded miss rating], it makes face-rolling as a B.Surger less easy-mode. It also forces casters in general to rely more heavily on skillfully timing their blocking stances and other anti-melee instead of just fire & forgetting.

reaper with no name · Dec 16, 2010, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Blind only takes you out of the entire match if an enemy takes the time to camp you with blind (thereby preventing them from doing much of anything, either) and your party doesn't have any condition removal. If both of these things are true, then you're supposed to be useless for the entire match, just as a monk without a defensive skill is supposed to die quickly.

And how would 66% miss chance from blind on top of all the other anti-melee be any better than 90% miss chance on top of all the other anti-melee? Either way, you wouldn't be doing any damage.

If you have a problem with the skills that inflict blindness, that's one thing. But all your idea would do is make it so that a blinded warrior with no other anti-melee on them would be less dependent on condition removal to do his job effectively. That would be a bad thing. Warriors are supposed to need condition removal to do their job with any efficiency. It promotes teamwork, and is what the class was designed for: tons of damage, but only if you have the support to deal with the inevitable shutdown.

chuckles79 · Dec 16, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

May I suggest a happy middle?
Perhaps reduce the recharge times on skills that cause daze? Every daze skill comes with serious drawbacks and conditions. Which is good, however that also makes it an wasted slot in fast moving PvP (Arenas, HA, GvG, and even AB).
The only time I pack a daze skill is for JQ and FA.
I understand Anet doesn't want the game to revolve around one condition, but since it's easily removable by teammates, non-spell removal, or fast casting spells; perhaps you should have more opportunities to try your luck.

I'll accept that Quivering Blade is an exception, but the rest (concussion shot, spear swipe, BhA, Stunning Strike, Skull Crack) all deserve a shot.

Reverend Dr · Dec 16, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Melee damage is the biggest and most lethal type of damage in the game. The tradeoff is that melee damage is the easiest damage to shut down, blind being a prime example of that.

I have played in daze heavy builds and daze is a terrible and gimmicky condition. It'd be better to get rid of it all together than to try to change it.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 22, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

No, this is a terrible idea. Removing daze is hard, and it is quite strong as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

May I suggest a happy middle?
Perhaps reduce the recharge times on skills that cause daze? Every daze skill comes with serious drawbacks and conditions. Which is good, however that also makes it an wasted slot in fast moving PvP (Arenas, HA, GvG, and even AB).
The only time I pack a daze skill is for JQ and FA.
I understand Anet doesn't want the game to revolve around one condition, but since it's easily removable by teammates, non-spell removal, or fast casting spells; perhaps you should have more opportunities to try your luck.

I'll accept that Quivering Blade is an exception, but the rest (concussion shot, spear swipe, BhA, Stunning Strike, Skull Crack) all deserve a shot.

Applying daze isn't too hard at all. For example, shock and BHA make a good combo. Stunning strike is also amazing. Concussion shot is even easier, but it costs a lot of energy. Then, it is also very strong.